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    • wootabega
    • Posted June 4, 2010 at 8:13 am
    • Permalink

    I don’t think I understand the metaphor here. Who is the victim supposed to represent? I don’t know if it’s supposed to be Israel, because if it was, shouldn’t he shooting unarmed people?

    • Steve T
    • Posted June 4, 2010 at 8:28 am
    • Permalink

    Hmmm, since those who brutally beat Reginald Denny during the 1991 L.A. riots (post Rodney King police trial), to include smashing a brick over Denny’s head as he lay bleeding on the ground, were called the “L.A. Four”… so, perhaps these could be the “Berkeley Three” ?

    Naa, they would never be prosecuted. Naturally, the goon with the Palestinian head rag must be one of the “oppressed victims” from the Gaza strip… being that the guy on the ground is an ‘evil’ Zionist.

    Perhaps Alex thinks this is a righteous reverse-rage social event?

    • Steve T
    • Posted June 4, 2010 at 9:15 am
    • Permalink

    Wootabega,
    Have you really bought into this recent Al Jazeera produced, anti-Israel propaganda ?

    Those terrorist thugs on that one ship were very well armed with gas masks, bullet-proof vests, AK-47′s, handguns, machetes, clubs, flash bang grenades,… your normal travel kit for peaceful aid givers (?)

    Their actions (on video) show’s that they were trained in anti-boarding techniques.
    (if you know some recent service Marines, or Fleet Navy guys, ask them about this)
    Gee, what little ‘kum by ya’ peace leaders taught them these skills?

    And the claims that the people of Gaza are deprived of food and water? Totally false!
    The street markets in Gaza are fully stocked with goods, per numerous people who have been in Gaza recently and have spoken on radio shows all over this country.

    “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”
    - Mark Twain

    • Max
    • Posted June 4, 2010 at 10:35 am
    • Permalink

    Another direct hit, Zack. The “useful idiots” of the left haven’t changed a bit. During the Cold War, it was the oppressed “proletarians” (aka, genocidal Marxist ideologues) who garnered their sympathies. Now it’s Muslim terrorists. Obviously anyone will do if they’re sufficiently anti-Western.

    • geeknerd
    • Posted June 4, 2010 at 11:41 am
    • Permalink

    Zack, for wootabega’s benefit, maybe the shading was too strong, or the contrast on the Star of David on the victim’s shirt was not enough for him to see it.

    Or maybe wootabega’s paradigm makes him incapable of seeing any victim of Islamofascism as Jewish.

    “Who blesses you I will bless, and who curses you I will curse.”

    • Big Money
    • Posted June 4, 2010 at 1:49 pm
    • Permalink

    In one case, Ince said, a gunshot victim had been shot at at extremely close range.
    “From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies,” Dr. Ince said, “the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters’ distance from the victim’s head.”

    ———————————————————————————————-
    [ Please Note: YouTube or CNN - Al Jazeera videos are not going to be allowed in the comments.
    Please understand, the comments section is not for what could become a contest of one video clip vs. another.
    We do encourage you to include quotes and sources to support your views, in your comment narrative, if you wish.]

    Thank you-
    Rafe
    [The Moderator]

    • Big Money
    • Posted June 4, 2010 at 5:48 pm
    • Permalink

    Your honor, after breaking into the deceased’s house, he attacked me with a kitchen knife. I was forced to shoot him in self defense.

  1. wootabega: By virtue of it’s inherent decency, Israel IS metaphorically unarmed: it possesses nuclear weapons (in all likelihood) and a massively effective military; yet notice how gingerly and non-violently it reacts to (just to name one example) the thousands of rockets showered on its civilian population after it gave up Gaza in return for a promise of peace. It is loathe to go to war even while militarily superior because as a basically humane democracy it seeks to avoid the deaths of countless civilians, whereas the Palestinians, inventors as they are of suicide bombing, seek above all to murder innocent civilians– children being an especially favored target, whose deaths are celebrated by Hamas and its innumerable adherents and sympathizers throughout the region.

  2. Steve T: I like that– “The Berkeley Three,” it sounds like a rock band or some old folk act like The Four Freshmen. What Jew-killing ballads would they sing as the leftists gather to clap rhythmically to the folksy Muslim beat?

  3. Max: Well said– your brief comment speaks volumes about the nature of “progressive” intent for the last 100 years or longer– at least since Marx, which is deep in the 19th century.(Some “progressivism,” that!)

    “The Useful Idiots”– in continuing a Comments theme, that too might well serve as the name of a leftist rock group.

  4. geeknerd: I don’t get wootabega’s struggle here either. Everyone else seems to get it, including lots of private emails I’ve received over this cartoon. But I’m thnking by the time he finishes reading the comments here he’ll have gotten something of an education into the drawing’s purpose and symbolism.

    • DonBiase
    • Posted June 8, 2010 at 8:58 am
    • Permalink

    “If they push, we’ll push back, twice as hard…if they bring a knife…we’ll bring a gun”
    The commander who sent (or aggreed to send) his men down the ropes,into a hostile crowd, with PAINTBALL GUNS should be court marshalled. The POLITICIAN who set the rules of engagement should ridden out of town on a rail.
    Israel should use overwhelming force.

    • Steve T
    • Posted June 8, 2010 at 3:44 pm
    • Permalink

    DonBiase — in my short time in the US Army (pre Desert Storm, late Cold War), I had some time to train with officers from other countries, under the officer exchange program the US has with our allies.
    I had just enough training time and exposure to Israeli officers to wish I could have spend a lot more time with them.
    These gentlemen were THE most professional, serious, forward-thinking & skilled soldiers, bar none, among our allies. If I had to join another countries military, I would not hesitate, it would be the IDF. These men, man to man, are the most serious soldiers you may ever meet, all have seen real & extended combat, all are very seasoned. Everyone one of them trains and performs knowing their countries very existence depends on them.

    Having said that, whatever the reason, they had some S.O.P. that called for paint ball guns, on these type of missions. Honestly, I do not understand it, but their TO&E was that way for a reason.
    I suspect if their intel had been better for that one ship, they would have roped down with much better ‘hardware’.
    Have no doubt – many high ranking Israeli officers are doing some ‘soul searching’, and a few may be seeing their careers abbreviated.

    After what I have seen and learned of the Hamas / Hezbollah / PLA / PLO cultures & ideologies, I would have (seriously) tasked a Specter gunship to be on station. 20mm Gatling cannon fire, two, at 100 rounds/ second each, plus two 40mm cannons, would have had a wonderful affect on the thugs on top of that one, particular “aid” (terrorist) ship. The decks would be adorned with Islamic slushies! [yes, those American brainwashed fools, included]… and I would sleep with a very clear conscience.

    Is that level of force sufficient as ‘openers’, for you?

    • Jamie
    • Posted June 9, 2010 at 4:42 am
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    Speaking of useful idiots… CNN finally showed the video of the assault, but zoomed in and cropped the video so that the crowd of men wailing on the IDF soldier on the deck were out of view.

    Also, after the cargo was released for delivery to Gaza, suddenly it wasn’t so urgently needed and remained stacked up in a storage yard…

    No evidence of propaganda here…

    • geeknerd
    • Posted June 9, 2010 at 7:59 am
    • Permalink

    I don’t know about you, but if I faced Israeli commandos armed only with paintball guns, or only Nerf weapons, I’d STILL probably run away screaming like a little girl.

    • DonBiase
    • Posted June 10, 2010 at 2:18 pm
    • Permalink

    Steve T
    First, thank you for your service to our country. Without you (and those like you) there is NO US.
    As to the force on hand…It’s better to have it and not need it, then to need it and NOT HAVE IT.
    My complaint about the IDF commanders: When a politician see’s military professionals refusing to command an operation that may lead (unneccessarly)to dead soliders. perhaps they will rethink the political constrantants placed on their brave young men.
    Show the enemy what the price is!
    Shock and Awe.
    If they attack “Kill then all and God will take his own”.
    Were it the U.S….I’d want A10′s in the air!!!.
    God Bless you
    God Bless the United States.
    God save Israel
    EFDonato

  5. Zack wrote:
    »By virtue of it’s inherent decency, Israel IS metaphorically unarmed.«

    Would you please clarify if that was meant as sarcasm, or if that sentence is an accurate representation of your honest opinion in this matter?

    • geeknerd
    • Posted June 13, 2010 at 7:32 am
    • Permalink

    Sandra,

    Israel is metaphorically unarmed by its decency in that it must work hard to minimize civilian and non-combatant casualties, while her Islamic enemies indecently assume that there is no such thing, on either side. Hamas for example launches indiscriminant missile strikes against civilian populations from launchers placed in the basements of their own schools and hospitals, preventing Israeli counterattack. Using their own people as human shields prevents enemy counterattack, and if it dosen’t, the casualties give them propaganda victory.

    It’s like a suspect holding his baby in one arm while firing at police with the other. If the police fire back and accidentally kill the child, the suspect will tell the press, “Look what those murderers did to my baby!” when it is the suspect who purposely put the baby in harm’s way.

  6. geeknerd: Thanks for the ace job of pinch-hitting for me in replying to Sandra. Since I had already laid out the substance of my reason for making that statement about Israel’s metaphorically disarmed status, I had felt no compunction to further repeat myself; but you’ve beautifully adumbrated my own position and heaped your own effective metaphor (i.e., the baby and the armed suspect)upon mine in the process. Sadly, much of the world, most notably the Islamo-antiSemites and the American and European left, fail to comprehend or acknowledge even the most baldly self-evident analogies; to try to persuade them of the obvious superiority of a manifestly decent democracy (Israel) over states which e.g. routinely chop off peoples’ hands for thievery and stone women to death for practically anything, no longer holds any appeal for me; I feel icky and dirty after arguing with such people, almost as you would after a discussion with someone who sided with the Nazis in WWII.

    • Miles A. brumberg, D
    • Posted June 15, 2010 at 7:48 am
    • Permalink

    Again, the artist has hit the nail squarely on its head with the cartoon and the caption. These are the same people who say there were no extermination camps because the Germans called them “re-settlement camps. And of course the Obama Administration represented by none other than Hillary Rodham Clinton takes the bait; hook, line and sinker. Why should the fact that her daughter [will] marry a Jewish man (non-practicing?) keep her from her appointed diplomatic pronouncements. Don’t believe your eyes folks. Forget what you saw on Fox News says Obama – the Chosen One we have all been waiting for! All you have to do is believe the spin-doctors at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Don’t forget though that one of Obama’s Middle East advisors was and is still a part of the Palestinian Intifada; his wife is good friends with Michelle Obama and his children play with the Obama children.

  7. Hi Zack, I am wondering if I can post your “United States of Amexica” on my blog. Will link to your site. Thanks so much.

    PS Love the SPLC cartoon you created!

  8. Izzy: Thanks, I appreciate that positive feedback. And sure, I’d be happy to be posted at your blog. When I get a chance I’ll check it out myself… make sure you’re not a dangerous character or something.

  9. Thanks for clearing that up, guys.

    geeknerd wrote:
    “Israel is metaphorically unarmed by its decency in that it must work hard to minimize civilian and non-combatant casualties”

    To the best of my knowledge, they’ve caused many civilian and non-combatant deaths over the years, for example during this flotilla raid, as well as economical warfare such as bulldozing houses.

    “while her Islamic enemies indecently assume that there is no such thing, on either side.”

    Yes, good point, that might often be true. I think most people on both sides have had civilian family members or relatives or friends that have been killed by the other side, which is part of what makes peace such a hard prospect.

    In this particular case, the flotilla raid, it certainly seems to me like the IDF stepped way out of line. In this case, the passengers on the boat was as far as I understand the unarmed party, which was why I was so frustrated with your original claimed that Israel was unarmed, right after they shot and killed many unarmed humans. The IDF has backtracked on some of its original propaganda statements and I urge you to follow more information about this raid as it comes along.

    Thanks again.

  10. Wootebega.

    Feel at ease that sometimes these allegedly horrific regimes (Israel is the Left’s latest bugbear du jour, rather than any of the assembled Sons of Allah types that rule 1/6 of the planet’s masses) are actually more in tune with “goodwill to man” than actual liberals are.

    Israel is in its right (and for those fans of UN Article 51 re: self-defense) to have SUNK those boats had she wished.

    Instead, she tried to conduct a rapid invesitgation about what was going on.

    Food and supplies supplied by the Israeli taxpayer enter Gaza to the tune of 15,000 tons weekly. So libs can ixnay on the notion of the Pallies being starved out, and other accusations.

    For this Israel gets condemned by the world at large.

    Meanwhile, real nuts like little Adolf in highheels over in Iran beats and murders opponents, and Captain No Dong over in North Korea (Kim Sung Il) have taken to raggity albeit dangerous nukes.

    I think the response from the lib community on this, the world at large, the Peace children, and the hapless Obama administration is…..is…… is….well….cricket chirps…

    Good thing the Sons of Allah…err…I mean, the UNITED NATIONS and the administration are just so doggone johnny-on-the-spot on this like they are with the Bay of Rigs in the Gulf.

    • Steve T
    • Posted June 20, 2010 at 6:29 am
    • Permalink

    Sandra,
    The moral equivalency you make between Israel and her enemies might get you a runner-up nomination for the Rachel Corrie Golden Bulldozer Award**.

    Helen Thomas beat you to the 1st annual award,… (sorry).

    ** – created at ThePeoplesCube.com

  11. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137997

    as to those “humanitarian efforts”

    ..and, what this is all REALLY about when you boil away the Left’s impudent, poseur, self-rightious moral grandstanding along with all the fluff about the “Freedom Flotilla” actually designed to undergird Hamas:

    http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/3397/26/

    • geeknerd
    • Posted June 20, 2010 at 7:43 am
    • Permalink

    Sandra,

    In war, it is impossible to eliminate accidental civilian and non-combatant deaths. Where is your outrage over the purposeful murder of civilians and non-combatants by suicide/homicide bombers?

    As to the bulldozer incident, I remember an American “peace” activist lying on a railroad to stop an armament train having his legs cut off by that train. When he sued, he learned that one cannot have a judge declare Newton’s Laws of Motion unconstitutional.

    Should Islam become triumphant, you’ll have your clitoris cut out, be forced into a burka, and be forcibly married to some lower escellon Muslim soldier. Unless they find out that you’re not dhimmi (Jewish, Christian or Hindu) and demand you accept the True Religion or die.

  12. geeknerd,

    when I visit Diversity Lane I need to check my outrage at the door.
    I read it and other right-wing blogs in order to honestly and openmindedly learn and understand different perspectives. It’s like you speak a completely different language and get your news and information somewhere different than I do and I try to acknowledge that gap, that difference and try to learn something.

    You got me thinking and I wanted to find out how many Palestinians were killed by Israelis and how many Israelis where killed by Palestinians during recent years. I thought it would be about equal, but all sources I can find make it ridiculously uneven. Isrealis seem to have killed far more. B’Tselem statistics page.

    It always weirds me out when an army, which is sanctioned by a democratic state, kills thousands of civilians, and it seems to me that the citizens in the country that controls that army have some sort of duty or responsibility to be knowledgable about what’s going on since they can influence it.

    Like, if my downstairs neighbour (who I hate and never speak to) went crazy (and/or political) and decided to blow up your house, am I more or less responsible than I would be if my elected government decides to have its army blow up your house?

    • geeknerd
    • Posted June 21, 2010 at 7:21 am
    • Permalink

    How fair ans balanced is B’Tselem Statistics page? Do they continue to repeat the lie about the massacre that never happened?

    Have you considered getting your news from MEMRI, the Middle Eastern Media Research Institute? They simply translate what the state-controlled media in the Middle East report.

  13. Wake, Mavi Marmara was the ship that was most brutally attacked. It had a lot of journalists, some of who were previously very well known and respected in my (European) home town. Did they really have guns or bombs on Mavi Marmara? That second link see to be more opinion than anything else.

    geeknerd,
    Thanks for the tip about MEMRI. It seems like a useful resource. Which specific massacre are you refering to?

  14. Yes, the Love Boat had guns on it. That is now confirmed.

    As to all the rest, it appears that when you use terms such as checking your outrage, it seems you’re here more to stir gorilla dust than truly seek answers.

    You seem intelligent enough also to understand that even IF we take your rather questionable link at absolute face value as sponsored by the Sons of Allah’s outreach network, we still have the problem of whether numbers killed in any conflict and utterly devoid of context mean all that much. The Allies killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese in WWII, no actual American “civilians” and non-combatants were killed after Pearl Harbor, and the Germans lost 250,000 true civilians to Allied bombs.

    I’m doubting you’ll claim therefore that seeing this line-to-line comparison means that the Fuhrer’s had some kind of moral standing, or that Tojo had similar standing in the eyes of the world community.

    Further, the purpose of Hamas and Hezbelloh and the Love Boat and other faux forms of advocacy is not to reach some kind of settlement or aid the Gaza residents.

    Rather, it is to DESTORY the state of Israel. That is not theory or conjecture, it is FACT. It is part of the PLO and HAMAS charters. It is encoded into their by-laws. That is fact.

    Seeing that Israel, on the backs of their OWN taxpayers, sends 15,000 tons of supplies to GAZA every WEEK, it is rather odd now that Flotillas of Peace are popping up out of the ether when such is not necessary. The blockade blocks only weaponry–not food or medical supplies.

    Israel is the only nation on earth that is not supposed to defend her own borders (well, her, and the Bambi administration’s take on Arizaon Law–but that has other more prosaic reasons behind it).

    No nation on earth would be forced to put up with this kind of thing of constanst harassment, child-killers splattering their guts in discos and supermarkets, and rocket attacks.

    The civilian death–so-called–that you speak of in large part come from the necessary responses that the IDF has had to employ to defend against the rocket attacks that come and go like tidal ebbs depending on the re-supply the Arab world gives Hamas, etc.

    During the last rocket reign of horror, rockets were cutting people up in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and elsewhere. Israel responds and people die due the utter COWARDICE of HAMAS and other Pally warriors HIDING behind children, women, markets, UN relief stations, ambulances, and other.

    Is this fair. Is therefore Israel to do NOTHING in response and just sit there and withstand the shin-kicks and crotch kicks she’s withstood for over 6 decades, because some hippy dippy types say there is a moral equivalancy due to “civilian deaths”, etc??

    Again–no other nation on earth would tolerate this kind of thing. Why should Israel, just to please the Berkely crowd?

    You might consider the last linkage opinion. That’s up to you. You don’t seem to pay attention to anything else here, and so be it. But it is FACT that Hamas and the other groups who wear the armpatches showing Israel as “palestine”, and teaching their darling kiddies to use ripcords on dynamite to kill the Jews, also hide behind civilians.

    I hearken back to the stories the world forgets after all these decades, of the attacks on the Jewish State, the Koran’s call for the Jews to be killed as monkies and pigs, for the Israeli state to be smashed, of the killings, and specific indidents like the Jewish children who’ve had their heads opened with PLO rifle butts and their brain contents used as paste to make anti-Semetic slogans painted on walls in Jewish towns.

    Anything to say on that? Is that now lessened due to “peace activists” going for a ride on Pally Love Boats???

    Make of these facts what you will, but be warned that no other nation on earth is required to fight for its mere existence with such oddball restrictions.

    There is no “love boat” or Orwellian soudning “freedom flotilla”–it’s a combo of hippy-dippy loonies who hate the Jewish state–as does this administration, by the way, combined with Palestinian activists (so called) making sure that more than bandaids get through the blockade.

    By all rights they should’ve been destroyed and the boat blown out of the water. And you know it. If dumbass journalists wished to go along for the ride, they assumed the risk that all professionals understand as part of the job.

    Given that you’ve focused on the narrow bandwidth of just throwing out moral opprobrium over numbers killed, what again was your point???

    • Wake
    • Posted June 23, 2010 at 7:55 pm
    • Permalink

    Zack:

    I had a comment here, but looks like it got nixed. Might compose another one later. Hopefully it just get caught in one of the filters.

  15. Being a target of evil doesn’t legitimize being evil.

    I haven’t found yet any sources to confirm guns/bombs on Mavi Marmara.

    The Gaza Flotilla seems to me to be a convoy of lovey-dovey hippy-dippy people—loonies in your words—who sincerely believe that they were breaking an immoral blockade, but you imply that there were weapons being smuggled (“more than bandaids”) which seems to me to be a false claim.

    It’s one thing to claim that the policies or actions of many people from the European left are ill–thought-out, bleeding-heart or stupid. It’s another to argue for our trial-less execution.

  16. Being a target of evil doesn’t legitimize being evil.

    Then apparently you’ve defined “evil” as anything within the realm of the role of self-defense, and along these lines your mind is lost. For along these lines, you would have the US and Israel give up on defense altogether under ANY context, and to that end we’d have to nix all police and other local security apparatus. Why? Because in true radical form, all violence and defense is “evil”–including the response to the INITIATION of violence.

    Fortunately, when it came to Tojo and Hitler’s international adventures, the rest of the world for the most part thought differently, that your comparison based on mere appearances would be rather frail, and that we have the right to defend whole societies and cultures as well as individuals.

    On the other hand, seeing the right to collective self-defense as an historical right bequeathed to most nations (including the hypocrite individuals and whole nations of the EU who would change their tune if personally attacked) Israel has every right to verify information, weaponry, and just what manner of “supplies” are being funneled into Gaza.

    It’s not “seem” this or that about “false” claims, as the reality is that Hamas getting boosted by these “supplies” only emboldens them.

    Far from false.

    And even if the intents of the Gaza Flotilla were pure as the drive snow, a blockade is there for a legit reason.

    You’re getting into the Odd Zone, Sandra, and at a certain point the whole issue is no longer going to be entertained by me and your other interlocutors here at DL. It too absurdist for real-world ponderances.

    If that link provided previously dosent’ help, I’m not sure what else to tell you. But it really matters not. If “aid” is what the Gaza residents need, that issue is already being handled as I said before by the 15,000 TONS of supplies given at ISRAELI TAXPAYER expense–WEEKLY. Things would seem painfully obvious that the attempt to say this is no good and that “Peace Flotillas” consisting of Hamas terror activists and Lefty wing grannies making some point about their hatred of the Jewish State should circumvent the blockade means that there are ill-tidings on the Palestinian Love Boats.

    And just who are these people…well……http://www.debbieschlussel.com/22783/who-are-huwaida-arraf-adam-shapiro-gaza-flotilla-leaders-sheltered-mikes-bar-homicide-bombers-islamic-jihad/#more-22783

    • geeknerd
    • Posted July 5, 2010 at 8:16 am
    • Permalink

    There is no such thing as humanitarian aid. A bowl of rice in the belly of an enemy soldier is the same as a weapon in his hand.

    For example, German naval attacks on Allied shipping in both world wars, and Allied attacks on Japanese shipping in WWII.

  17. Exactly, Geeknerd!

    All the more reason for the blockade to stand as is.

    People have the right to defend themselves, even if the Grandmas For Peace Brigades and other transparent phonies wearing the Pally garb for headbands are boarding ships filled to the brim with food, medicine, and toys for the tots. These things can be had for the Palestinian people from Israel. And already are.

  18. Wake wrote:
    “You’re getting into the Odd Zone, Sandra, and at a certain point the whole issue is no longer going to be entertained by me and your other interlocutors here at DL.”

    Fair enough. I got my original question answered—that some of you do sincerely see the IDF as the underdog in this scenario and that you think that the Devons of the world, like me, at least in some circumstances deserve execution without trial.

    It raises further questions but we’re getting in philosophical deep waters which would be hard to navigate given our different perspectives.

    I guess I draw the line between defense and offense, and particularly between defense and revenge, differently than you do. I think revenge leads to more revenge. Matthew 5:38-42.

    As for your links, I don’t see much to them. I haven’t seen much proof that those bombers spent the night with ISM or made any serious efforts to infiltrate or associate with ISM.

    geeknerd wrote:
    “A bowl of rice in the belly of an enemy soldier is the same as a weapon in his hand.”

    I disagree.

    I think it’s imperative not to stoop to the barbarism of our enemies lest we become them.

  19. I do believe that I was primarily speaking of the defensive actions of the IDF in regards to what GN pointed out was a legit way to conduct things. You MUST stanch the supply lines.

    Supplies are supplies, and the point he was making, as was I, was that when you have massive loads of supplies coming in to enemy combatants, even the lack of guns is not the point or the main focus, because what we have here are the equivalent of “in kind” payments that allow Hamas to “free up” other money to spend on true weaponry.

    Again, if real needs are in Gaza, Israel can and does supply that at their own expense with the provisions of at least the pretense or understanding that it must go to those in dire need.

    (NOT to be used for barter and whatnot with other agencies for cash equivalency, etc.)

    Defending one’s nation is not the moral equivalence of “stooping” to anyone’s leve.

    If so, then what would you have Israel do the next time one of these so-named “Peace Flotillas” is on the way to Gaza.

    Ignore it?

    Trust some international agency of do-gooders to “verifty” the contents in some independent fashion. So alleged?

    This, from the same kinds of organizations and “peace initiatives” types that operate in the UN that most typically find no fault with the likes of Arafat’s gut-splat legacy or for that matter today’s Hamas leadership???

    You’ve theoretically backed Israel into a corner, and yet expect no response whatsoever due to Bible passages taken out of context??

  20. PS–Lastly, the last link I provided demonstrated that the ties to terrorists to the Gaza Flotilla are fairly well known by now.

    Though it’s not as if the Western world at large does not know of this, it’s just that no one in the major media really cares.

    The feeling in Europe and among the liberal elites is that while sad if Israel is destroyed, Israel is an “occupier” land, so at long last when this illegal occupation is over, we’ll have peace at last and usher in the Golden Age Of Palestinian peace and love and all the rest.

    That is the tacit understanding here, even if not broadly said. To her credit, Helen Thomas got nasty enough to finally spill the beans on what she and other liberals and most likely the administration also feels must happen at long last.

    The Jews must leave “Palestine.”

    She’s a nasty person, but at least she’s honest and never hid behind the faux moral outrage of pretending that Hamas is there for joy and happiness for the Jewish people.

  21. Wake wrote:
    “If so, then what would you have Israel do the next time one of these so-named “Peace Flotillas” is on the way to Gaza.

    Trust some international agency of do-gooders to “verify” the contents in some independent fashion.”

    Yes.

    “PS–Lastly, the last link I provided demonstrated that the ties to terrorists to the Gaza Flotilla are fairly well known by now.”

    If you mean the link that suggested that the founders of the ISM are terrorists then that’s hardly proof or a demonstration.
    I can’t find sources to verify that the Mike’s Place murderers interacted with the ISM for more than a matter of minutes.

    However, Hamas did claim responsibility (joint with the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades) for those killings. But the ISM isn’t Hamas.

    Hamas is an organization of killers and their successes in Palestine elections are an embarrassment to both sides.
    The leader of Hamas was then in turn murdered by the IDF.
    Which I guess is war. I don’t know what to do about killers killing each other.

    I’m protesting the murder of “peaceniks” and “hippy-dippy loonies” and I dispute calling that “defense”.

    • geeknerd
    • Posted July 6, 2010 at 8:01 am
    • Permalink

    Sandra,

    Since gun violence is so bad, should we disarm the police, so they don’t “stoop to the barbarism of [their] enemies lest [they] become them”?

    Oh, I forgot, as a leftist you probably want civilians to be unarmed for precisely the same reason.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 6, 2010 at 9:02 am
    • Permalink

    Sandra you’re now talking in circles.

    But at least you’ve now admitted plainly that Israel is to do nothing whatsover.

    The admission that these international organizations that also are pitching for Israel’s extinction (or are happy to look the other way in the name of their faux moral stand) are the ones to do the verification process is evidence enough.

    But then even if this result is not immediate, we have the dual problems raised by geeknerd.

    The conception you have now that defending oneself is inherently evil, and then of course the somewhat more clear fact that “in-kind” aid is exactly what he mentioned–war help to enemy combatants, which in the past was stopped. So even if the do-gooders have noble intentions, Hamas and the Palestinians benefit from the “in-kind” aid that allows them to fund terror.

    Distinction with no difference.

    In this case, the world wants Israel to just let the goodies flow. The best intentions can lead to the yellow brick road to hell.

    If the ISM helps Hamas, the ISM, with it’s numerous ties to both Palestinian and Turkish terror organizations and organizational support helps Hamas, it is therefore part of the terrorist network. It is that simple.

    It is absurd. You’ve cornered the Jewish State and now declare there is nothing they can or should do–and then expect them to do nothing.

    Israel should SINK any further ships designated for any faux purpose in aiding those who’ve sworn to destroy them.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 6, 2010 at 9:14 am
    • Permalink

    PS–as to this notion of “independent” verification of anything (even if warranted, which it is not) keep in mind the US would not tolerate that approach either. No matter what the stated claims of the organizers and the Palestinian headband warriors organized by the Turkish IHH and other terror-support networks and outfits.

    After all, that’s why we have the coast guard.

    I seriously doubt these grandmas with the kefeyyah’s and headbands mean Israel any decent good, but even if so it is far from likely you’d get decent results from any international coalition from the same general types who would cheer Israel’s destruction or merely raise an eyebrow at further problems.

    And by now you damned well know it. Most everything the Left does is a tissue of lies, deception, faux moral outrage, chicanery, deliberate lack of understanding of basic economics, smoke and mirrors, and other tomfoolery.

    Let Israel defend herself. IE–let her do something we Americans take for granted (or used to, though Obama is not too keen on dealing properly with Iran)

    You’ll have a more peaceful situation before you can say “Give War a Chance” or emblazen it on an old Che Guevara T-shirt. And all sides would be better off for the efforts at pragmatic thinking.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 6, 2010 at 9:43 am
    • Permalink

    The purpose of the IHH and Hamas is to DESTORY Israel, and the people who make up the major part of these “Flotilla” exercises are part of that general effort and from everything I’ve seen fairly much agree.

    Hamas, like the PLO, has the destruction of Israel WRITTEN INTO ITS FOUNDING CHARTER DOCUMENTS.

    Sort of like a constitutional “preamble” wording about their ultimate goals.

    I’m willing to bet more than a few of these “peace” children (so named) understand that. Also, I find there are very few real pacificists out there.

    As George Orwell pointed out, most pacificists never had much to say about the belligernce of the enemies of freedom or even the West in general (unless it was a right wing movement) and had little to say about leftist revolutionary violence–always explaining the situation away as something of course the West was ultimately responsible for due to colonialism, imperialism, and whatnot.

    But their main ire was almost always directed against the US and her allies.

    Ditto for this situation. So what we see here from this “peace” talk is once again history coming back to roost on the fenceposts of deception about what they really believe. They want Israel to be utterly destroyed, and if you notice rarely have much to say about the things my Jewish friends are very much aware of: The coddling of terrorists who’ve opened up the heads of Jewish children with rifle butts, the disco bombings, the blood and horror caused by these “Palestinian” activists, etc.

    But “Palestine” was NEVER an autonomous region like Israel was in the past. NEVER. NOT ONCE. It was overrun with squatters after the Roman Empire renamed Israel and Judea as “Palestine” as a slur word to humiliate the Jewish people by calling up a reminder of their enemies–the “Philistines”–from which we get out word today of “Palestine.”

    They have no legitimacy there. Only the Jews.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 6, 2010 at 10:15 am
    • Permalink

    The real connections here, and the attitudes to boot, against the very existence of Israel

    http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/3371/26/

    • Steve T
    • Posted July 6, 2010 at 1:35 pm
    • Permalink

    Sandra,
    Your choice of words betrays a great amount of what you really believe;
    “The leader of Hamas was then in turn murdered by the IDF”.

    Hmmm – perhaps you feel that the U.S. military was systematically “murdering” German officers from 1942-1945 ?

    Further, using your reasoning about the IDF, you must also feel that the U.S. military leaders were “murdering” Japanese officers, who were husbands and loving fathers of beautiful children, on the high seas of the peaceful, wonderful blue Pacific ocean, between 1942 to 1945 ?
    When the U.S. Navy blew a German or Japanese naval ship out of the water, we “murdered” them hundreds at a time.

    I have a news flash for you – Israel has a duty and responsibility to defend her people by KILLING her mortal enemies.
    I am damn sorry I am not able to go there and help them myself !!

    Sandra – consider and reflect upon your (interesting) web site very carefully. Those Islamic fundamentalists who are trying to wipe Israel off the map, who are part & parcel of the Gaza strip flotilla, who are sending high explosive rockets into Israel every day – if they, these Islamic elders, were to examine your web site, and you were physically in their custody, the odds are very great they would be sawing your (infidel) head off, with a rusty scimitar.

    Please, visualize this; – they often begin slicing at the front of your throat, so you can suffer while the forward 4-5″ of soft tissue are being cut through, before your spinal cord is cut (lights out).

    Throughout the country & people of Israel, your web site would draw a limited amount of interest, or be ignored.
    You would be perfectly safe to go about your life in Israel uninterrupted – and free to keep berating the IDF.

    Are you picking up on a hint yet, here ?!?

  22. …if they, these Islamic elders, were to examine your web site, and you were physically in their custody, the odds are very great they would be sawing your (infidel) head off, with a rusty scimitar.

    Please, visualize this; – they often begin slicing at the front of your throat, so you can suffer while the forward 4-5″ of soft tissue are being cut through, before your spinal cord is cut (lights out).

    Throughout the country & people of Israel, your web site would draw a limited amount of interest, or be ignored.

    Exactly, Steve. By contrast, the only way to curry favor with the Palestinians would be to pull some knuckleheaded Rachel Corrie advocacy move and let them know right away that basically you’re “into” the whole notion of removing Israel from the map as well, albeit they’d understand under the banner of “peace” and “sides to the issue” and other such blather.

    From the Palestinian “heroes” often seen in the writings and the adulations of the same in guys like Hitler http://pmw.org.il/bulletins_dec2007.htm, to the neato kids shows for Palestinian tots speaking of the wonders of Jihad, gut-splatting, killing of Jews, and martyrdom, the fun never ends against the Monkies and Pigs (as the Palestinians teach their kids what the Koran says about the Jews, etc).

    And they don’t make political or ideological distinctions or care a tinker’s damn about whether Sandra is apologetic, conciliatory, or peace-loving. They’d think that’s all Westernized multi-culti mess they’d just as soon do without. The irony here is overwhelming: Sandra would be safe in Israel to speak her mind to the Nth degree, but not in Gaza or other Hamas-controlled enclaves.

    Behold: “Palestinian” childhood.

    Oh, and just for Sandra’s benefit and good measure, here’s some more about the invoking of killing of the Jews from that Love Boat Flotilla exercise:

    So we can now kiss the whole “moral equivalancy myth goodbye and good riddance. Defense against such violence is not the same as the initiation of violence. And as Steve pointed out we’re dealing with fundamentally different societies.

    This kind of thing is taught to the Palestinian children from a tender age onward, and not only throat-cutting but skull-openings of Jewish children with rifle butts, the use of their brains as a paste to write slogans on the walls of Jewish homes, and similar gruesome tactics. The incidents go on and on.

    If the Jews left Palestine to us, would we start loving them? Of course not. We will never love them. Absolutely not. The Jews are infidels – not because I say so, and not because they are killing Muslims, but because Allah said: “The Jews say that Uzair is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that Christ is the son of Allah. These are the words from their mouths. They imitate the sayings of the disbelievers before. May Allah fight them. How deluded they are.” It is Allah who said that they are infidels.

    –Egyptian cleric Muhammad Hussein Ya’qoub:

  23. Wow, a lot has happened here since yesterday!

    On Hamas:
    I welcome the criticism of Hamas brought up here. The policies, ideals and behaviour of the Hamas is at least as bad as those of the IDF.
    I made the comparison with the IDF murdering the leader of Hamas specifically as a counterpoint of their apparent murder of some of the passengers on Mavi Marmara.

    On Israel:
    I’m not an expert on geopolitical conflicts. At a first glance, it seems to me that Israel should withdraw the settlements from the areas occupied in 1967.

    On approaching the Gaza strip from international waters:
    Isn’t it a bit as if there was a war between Canada and the USA and Canada were to shoot down (non-weapons) support boats approaching Alaska?

    I think what the IDF did was wrong in this case. The IDF had weapons, the boats didn’t. The IDF killed passengers, not the other way around.

    Ideally, I think that a third party inspection would be best—given that the boat is traveling from international waters, to the Gaza strip and not or via Israel herself.

    Israel borders other countries, too—does she have the right to sink ships approaching those? Because they might be carrying steel pipes that can be used to launch missiles against her.
    Why don’t she just put the whole world in a bottle? Invade all countries since she knows best at all times?
    No! Due process. If you want to be recognized as part of the free world.

    On different religions:
    I haven’t replied to the lurid descriptions of violent fantasies directed towards my person, such as supposed genital mutilation or decapitation that I’m due unless »the muslims« take over. I’ve already criticized Hamas and will do so again. I can’t be muslim or any other religion that forbids بدعة‎ as most sects of Islam do. Nor can I live happily in a world ruled by the Seven Laws of Noah that many sects of judaism proscribe for gentiles. (That’s not intended as a slight against non-religious aspects of modern-day Jewish-American culture.)

    So what are you saying? That all muslims are evil? That they need to be exterminated? Or what?

    You know how a lot of people arguing against some of Israel’s policies and actions are really close to being anti-semites? Which is why it’s hard to critize Israel’s policies because I don’t want anything to do with anti-semitism. Neither do I want anything to do with the same prejudices applied against the arab worlds.

    Wake, on your homepage you depicted that asshole Helen Thomas with a stereotypical depiction of heaven according to some sects of Islam. But she isn’t muslim, she’s a greek-orthodox christian. I’ll never defend her, because I disagree strongly with what she said, but I think it’s a bad idea of you to use ethnic/religious discrimination.

    The day anyone of any creed come at us, sword in hand, and try to make us convert is the day we have to fight back. Most religions have a history of such actions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam—even Zen Buddhism was used to justify horrible crimes during wartime. I don’t ever want to be a part of that or subjected to that.
    “On nation, under God,” they say, and then they drop the bomb.

    But using someone’s religious or ethnic affiliation to target them is something that you have to do very carefully if you want to stay on the side of good.
    The day you or they come at us sword in hand, we fight back. When you’re, or they’re, praying on mats in their own homes, we don’t. If I want others to respect my dialogue with God, blasphemous as it may seem to them, shouldn’t I do the same to them?

    The line between your Helen Thomas’ 72 virgins image, or the Jylland-Posten images, are scarily close to thirties German propaganda.
    Of course I don’t want to live under Sharia, or Noahide, or Baptist rule! I want to live free. Nor do I want to get killed just because I associate indirectly with academia kooks like Mattias Gardell or crappy crime fiction writers like Henning Mankell, both participating in this flotilla and neither a terrorist.

    On defense:
    I’m repeating myself on this point. I’m not against defense but I think the actions during the flotilla raid were offense, not defense.
    Defense = saving/protecting people. Offense = attacking people.

    On “backing into a corner”:
    Yes, we need to be careful about this from both sides. Arguably, most cases of aggression from either side can be traced back to helplessness and frustration. The feeling of seeing residents of Gaza trapped under the control of their neighbouring enemy is what led to this flotilla in the first place, and it’s interception only led to even more bottled-up helplessness. “Devon-style” pop-psycho-babble to some ears, sure, but you used the same rhetoric. What is the Gaza Strip? You obviously don’t treat it as a country of it’s own since you want to control its water routes. You put “Palestine” in quotes. It’s like this heavily guarded refugee camp. Of course they’re going to elect violent kooks and terrorists!

    On the WWII:
    It’s been pretty common to bring up comparisons to WWII on this thread. I’ve often formulated responses and then deleted them in the last minute before hitting “Post Comment”.
    We all grew up looking at WWII as an unambiguously “just” war especially compared to unclearer wars like the Vietnam war, but the more I read about WWII, I see it as a war of oftentimes evil vs evil. On the one hand, we have the trifecta of Churchill, FDR and Stalin, on the other we have Mussolini, Tōjō and Hitler. The latter were evil as hell, but as far as I understand it, not much effort was given on the part of the allied forces to liberate or even bring attention to the horrible plights of the Jews in Europe or the victims in Nanking. The war propaganda lay elsewere and only after the war was the Nazi’s antisemitism brought up as a propaganda point. The bombing of Dresden civilians while ignoring the nearby military targets, the Japanese internment camps, even Gulag, Nagasaki—I can never get behind those actions nor can I particularly admire the McCarthyist regime that followed.
    Were some of the murderous actions made in the war “just”? Maybe, considering the alternative: horrible Axis rule. Were all of them? No way! Isn’t it important to first and foremost target military targets?

    On this thread:
    Now I guess this thread will live for ever. There’s always aspects of my world view that you want to pick apart and there’s always aspect of the conservative worldview that I want to pick apart. (Actually, discussing at those “root” levels is probably more interesting than attacking any particular “leaf” of our beliefs. To me, conservatism becomes invalid when it goes from “slow change” to imposing negative change on who already live progressively. The big brouhaha about gay relationships and DOMA is a clear example. Conservatism is about “conserving” a society, right? So the conservative viewpoint is consistent when it tries to keep a village where everyone is outwardly heterosexual that way by discouraging future homosexual relationships in that particular place, but becomes a negative agent of change when it wants to federally and retroactively invalidate gay “marriages” that have already taken place, or were to take place in regions that were more progressive. A strong force of negative change can’t be legitimately called conservative. You pander to our fears that someone will come along waving the sharia in hand to erode the feminist progress we’ve made, while at the same time supporting western conservative efforts to erode that same progress.)

    I originally only wanted to make the basic point that IDF was “metaphorically” unarmed but factually armed and that the flotilla passengers where factually unarmed, and many of them were factually killed on their way to a place that, if it’s not occupied territory, what is it?

  24. “They’d think that’s all Westernized multi-culti mess they’d just as soon do without.
    …but not in Gaza or other Hamas-controlled enclaves.…”

    That’s true. I would be killed there.

    “The irony here is overwhelming: Sandra would be safe in Israel to speak her mind to the Nth degree,”

    As cases like this flotilla raid and others prove, that’s not true, but it should be.

    Fortunately for me, I’m not there, I’m a long way from the Middle East, free to do my armchair commenting in peace—and the fact that I’m (and others, more capable than me, are) free to do so is an important part of moral decency.

    We should subject ourselves to higher standards than our enemies.

    • geeknerd
    • Posted July 8, 2010 at 7:00 am
    • Permalink

    Please study Islam. Consider what happened when Islam reached India. Islam teaches that in territory it controls, there are 3 groups, believers, dhimmi, and everybody else. Dhimmi (Jews and Christians) are second class citizens subjected to humiliation and segregation. The third group is offered conversion to Islam, and killed if they don’t accept it.

    When Islam entered India, there were 2 religious groups, Hindus and Buddhists. Since neither group was dhimmi, they set out to conquor, convert, or exterminate these heathen religions. They succeeded in wiping our Buddhism in its country of origin, because the Buddhists were concentrated around shrines and holy men, and were usually pacifist.

    After centuries of attempting to convert the Hindus, the Muslims realized that it wasn’t working. So, they elevated Hindus from heathens to be killed if they don’t convert, to dhimmi, which can be tolerated as second class citizens.

    Muslim reasoning was this; Allah gave His word to Moses, but the Jews have corrupted it over the centuries. Allah then gave His word to Jesus, but the Christians corrupted it. Then Allah gave His word one last time to Mohammed, and we have NOT corrupted it. The Hindus have scriptures called Sutras; Allah must have given them His word via a profit long, long ago, and the Hindus have corrupted it. Therefore, we can consider Hindus to be People of the Book, just like Christians and Jews.

    Fast forward to the 2oth century. After the British leave India, Gandi and Nehru set up a democratic India, where all Indians have equal rights. The Muslims were aghast. Give dhimmi the same rights as believers? This is against the law of Allah! This was one of the reasons behind the Indian civil war that broke Pakistan away from India.

    The territory of Cashmere (where the goats come from) was predominantly Muslim, but held a referendum, asking, should we join the Muslim state of Pakistan and life under Sharia, or join the democracy of India? They chose India. The Islamic state of Pakistan did not accept the Cashmeri referendum, and have been fighting with India for control of the area.

    If you are not a Christian, Jew, or Hindu, Islam wants you to convert to The True Religion, or die.

    One thing needs to happen before I will ever consider Islam a “religion of peace,” when a Buddhist temple is allowed to open in downtown Mecca.

  25. If Israel retreated to areas of pre-1967 war gains, she’d be more vulnerable than ever, and would go from a nation almost already bisected in the middle to one almost naked if the West Bank was completely turned over as some kind of putative “Palestinian” State–and then of course Hamas would continue its goal of Israel’s destruction (an issue you’ve decided not to engage for all your curious moralizing) only this time, it would have a much great strategic advantage than ever before. And the whole bruha about East Jerusalem is nonsense. ALL of Jeruslam is for Israel, is not mentioned in the Koran, and is part of the Jewish people’s history.

    I’m not here to say the IDF is sacrosanct, to rehash history, ponder geopolitics or navels and the nature of life, and all the rest, and I think any onlookers by now in the middle of July on this post would say the thread is about threadbare at this point. But I’ll try and wrap things up here by saying that when it comes to the IDF, to compare what are generally defensive actions with the genocidal desires of groups like Hamas in the “at least” type format of the old faux “pox on both houses” trick of moral equivalency is absurdist. CS Lewis had it closer. To say all violence is immoral is like saying all sex is rape. Clearly the appearances and putative similar outcomes of things (just as rape can lead to pregnancy just as well as all forms of war–defensive or offensive–can lead to death) is not a good metaphysical moral standard. The Arab world goaded the Palestinians to leave upon thinking that Palestine would be cleansed of the Jews, and then they’d return to their “lands.” And that’s the foolery that got us the present unpleasantness. Too bad. Sometimes there are consequences to pay, and the Palestinians paid the price for the Arab goading and now the Arab world refuses to reabsorb them into Arab society (Jordan was to be Palestine) and so there is of course palpable anger. Tough.

    No other nation on earth is asked for “moral” reasons to tolerate what the Israelis do, and have tolerated in the name of “peace”, for about 6 decades now. If Miami were in flames or San Antonia or Tokyo or Shanghai or Taipei or Paris or London got bombed, we’d see screams of outrage from those nations and the proper justice meted out, and it’d matter not if some group of squatters called the Wipizunis decided they had some non-historical, non-autonomous right to these areas due to their leaders and the rest of the world saying so. There has NEVER been a “Palestinian” state or autonomous region in that area called “Palestine” other than a Roman emperor’s slander by calling the Jewish homeland “Palestina.” There is no mention of these lands in the Koran so far as I know, but are an integral part of the history of the Jewish people

    That’s about as close as it gets.

    Ya see, the REAL issue here is not hard to figure out, and the Israelis know it. Too bad the rest of the world seems not to have it figured out. They just have faux morals.

    http://www.breitbart.tv/for-it-muslim-student-in-san-diego-confesses-she-wants-a-second-holocaust/

    Israel cannot afford to allow any more of these “peace” Jihadzillas.

  26. Helen Thomas with a stereotypical depiction of heaven according to some sects of Islam. But she isn’t muslim, she’s a greek-orthodox christian. I’ll never defend her, because I disagree strongly with what she said, but I think it’s a bad idea of you to use ethnic/religious discrimination.

    They can have her just the same. There are many who might join her as well, and have in fact joined her catcalls. These include mainline Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, more than a few secularists, and many others.

    She is of Lebanese derivation. How much that Arabian background figures into all this is hard to say. But certainly there is some influence. It could just be her particular nasty attitude or her mingling in Left wing politics for so long. Who knows for certain, but it matters not to me.

    Difference without a distinction.

    Again, the IDF has the right to scan any such blockade running. The very fate of a nation is at stake. That things turned sour when they landed on the boat is regrettable, and I hardly know the finer details and don’t claim to, but the best best is to honor the blockade.

    After all, there’s a reason for it.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 14, 2010 at 9:29 am
    • Permalink

    “best BET”, that is.

    And one more thing, Sadra:

    You seemed to be implying that there is some kind of censorship or even implied threat for people who speak their minds on this topic in places like Israel. Perhaps even here.

    I much doubt that. While this particular forum might disagree with you on most of the above issues you wish to hash out, the fact is you can find your flavor in Israel and the US quite easily, and though perhaps a minority opininon–is well-protected.
    Here, or in Israel. No one in Israel is going to hack your head off. You might get shunned, true. But then the audacity of your moral equivalency notions IS sort of a hard pill to swallow for a people looking over their shoulder for 6 decades now.

    So I think some leeway on Israeli treatment of others via any theorectical disapproving looks or comments should be given there, no?

    The events and words surrounding the “peace” Jihadtilla don’t prove anything of the type you propose.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 14, 2010 at 9:43 am
    • Permalink

    PS–the Seven Laws of Noah apply to Jews and Gentile alike, and cover things like NOT stealing, bestiality, eating the flesh of animals already dead (carrion, road kill of the day), not having adultery, not murdering (premeditated murder, as apart from self-defense), not lying, and other ordinances of life that seem for the most part really practical. Perhaps a type of precusor to the Ten Commandments, which all but one (Sabbath worship) still seem applicable.

    So unless you’re a wilder gal than I think, not sure how these ordinances make you wince all that much.

    Having said that, these are not universally even aknowledged even by modern Jews. Certainly not your more secular types who still go by the very title.

    So let not your heart be troubled.

    More importantly, they are NOT0 (unlike Islamdom’s rules) state-mandated by entire national governments by force of law. No one in America or Israel would say you can’t be…well….whatever. Israel allows secularists, athiests, and Muslims and Christians alike.

    They have some rules on prosyletization, yes, because so often it merges with political and ideological ambitions as well, and feel it can damage their culture. But they don’t dictate beliefs.

    This is decidedly NOT the case in most of the Islamic world, where even formerly “moderate places” like Iran under the Shah (women had more freedoms then) and Malaysia and Indonesia now might have official government stances on freedom of religion and separation of state from faith, but like other Muslim cultures the culture and government are still hostile to other beliefs.

    In Israel by contrast you can be anything you like. And people often are. They have a sizable Muslim population there that goes to school, to mosque, and attend university. Try and garner this for Christians and Jews in Saudi Arabia. The latter cannot safely enter. The former are monitored and cannot go to certain areas, and certainly cannot worship. Neither can establish a life there unless you’re a secular-sounding Western contractor or some such.

    Good luck.

  27. Wake:
    “of course Hamas would continue its goal of Israel’s destruction (an issue you’ve decided not to engage for all your curious moralizing) only this time”

    I don’t like or support Hamas and I’ve tried to speak out against Hamas repeatedly here. Since no one is arguing for them, I don’t see exactly what I should engage.

    They’re bad guys.

    “No other nation on earth is asked for “moral” reasons to tolerate what the Israelis do”

    This whole thread is about “moral decency” and it’s claimed applicability in this case. Israel can do whatever the hell she wants but don’t call it good when she does evil.

    “She is of Lebanese derivation. How much that Arabian background figures into all this is hard to say.”

    There is long-running hostility between greek-orthodox groups and muslim groups. Don’t conflate them because of ethnicity. That’s almost like saying that everyone from the African-American diaspora practices voodoo, isn’t it?

    “No one in Israel is going to hack your head off.”

    How about shoot it off, if I’m dissident / foolish enough to go aboard what seems to me to be a humanitarian voyage?
    There’s this guy, from around here, I’ve never met him personally. You’d call him a kook straight outta the ivory tower, I guess, but he’s a human being. If he’s a terrorist I’ll eat my hats. His brother, whom I haven’t met either, was a celebrated comedian when I was younger so they’re both pretty well known. He (academian, not the comedian) was on Mavi Marmara and was missing for days (in Israeli custody). Some other persons on the Mavi Marmara were killed point blank. We were all scared, following the news back home. I check in on Diversity Lane and I was very surprised and confused by the spin the situation was given here.

    The flotilla was unarmed on international waters on it’s way to a contested territory, a place who’s every border was controlled by a nation at war with it. Why don’t they just nuke the whole Gaza Strip, then, if they’re so morally decent?

    It’s as if a bunch of thugs operated out of Coney Island, killed 28 (actual number of deaths from Palestine rockets) Manhattan civilians, and the democratically elected mayor and police force of New York were to kill over a thousand Coney-Islanders, many of them civilians, in retaliation, and if the NY coast guard were to strictly control all traffic to-and-fro Coney Island, making it a prison state.

    I mean, where does it end? If you say Israel is backed into a corner, what, then, is the Gaza Strip? It’s the undisputed king of being backed into a corner. Did you see Joe Saccos book on Palestine? He comes off as kinda naïve in places, but it’s a quick read (it’s in comics form).

    Do you think there can ever be peace, and how? By blockades such as this?

    Re: Noahide laws. If it’s true that there’s no real movement behind these laws, it was very unfair of me to bring them up. I apologize. I meant it as a contrast to all the sharia talk in this thread but I guess it must just make me look anti-semitic.

    “More importantly, they are NOT (unlike Islamdom’s rules) state-mandated by entire national governments by force of law”

    I agree. You make an important point there. It’s true that a few (a minority) of the Islamic states practice classical sharia.
    That’s why we have such high expectations on Israel—because it posits itself to be part of the free world.
    That’s why this is such a big deal for me, that’s why Israels lies, murders and massacres were so horrible—and I guess that’s the point Zack tried to make with this cartoon all along. We have higher expectations on Israel.

    Where you and I differ is in how much we think she lives up to them.

    Geeknerd:

    For all your analogies to WWII you’re skirting dangerously close to a thirties-sounding “der ewige Araber”-rhetoric.
    Not everyone who’s ever opened a Qu’ran is evil.

    • Steve T
    • Posted July 18, 2010 at 5:00 pm
    • Permalink

    Sandra,
    After reading these exchanged comments, it is as obvious as the nose on your face that you not only have consumed a steady diet of anti-Israel propaganda bilge, and you very likely have some strong ideological bonds to the Rachel Corrie Za Za sisterhood, you have an invincible immunity to accepting the moral and overwhelming factual differences of who & what Israel is, and what her enemies are about.

    People spoke in words, somewhat like your own, in defense of the pre-WWII German Reich. Some of those notable defenders included Charles Lindbergh, Henry Ford, and Ted Kennedy’s daddy, Joe Kennedy.
    Today people like this (terminally) deluded Rachel Corrie and YOU – in the confidence of your ill-informed ignorance, speak in terms of;
    - “The flotilla was unarmed on international waters on it’s way to a contested territory, a place who’s every border was controlled by a nation at war with it. Why don’t they just nuke the whole Gaza Strip, then, if they’re so morally decent?”

    Reality check for Sandra — one of those flotilla ships had a heavily armed mob that swarmed the Israeli soldiers, and was trying to kill them.
    Bullets taken from critically wounded IDF soldiers came from firearms that were NOT Israeli.
    Guess what? That means those flotilla aid people (aka -Islamic thugs) OPENED FIRE on the IDF soldiers first-!!!
    Further, the IDF soldiers had boarded and searched the previous 4-5 other ships in this flotilla, without violent incident.

    That is known as a FACT that strongly contradicts your kume-bye-ahh opinion of those flotilla, bambi-like innocent aid-bringers.
    There are video’s on YouTube showing these Islamic thugs swarming and violently attacking these IDF soldiers, as they roped onto the ships deck, one at a time. Those soldiers were fighting to save their own, and one another’s lives, and that too is a fact.

    Yes – some of those Islamic thugs had head-shot wounds that by evidence of powder burns, happened at close range.
    Hey babe – if some rapist thugs were attacking you, clubbing, knifing and shooting at you — if you Sandra, pulled your side arm (the only firearms the IDF soldiers had) to defend your life, the bullet holes you created in your attackers would have powder burns, and some of them could well be head shots too. That is, unless you do not have the gumption to save your own tail.
    Sandra, you obviously are among the masses who have the comfort of being blisteringly ignorant of history, and the lessons it otherwise imparts on those who want to appreciate the wisdoms it should provide.
    If you give a damn about the truth – you ought to find some new sources of news, and dump the Rachel Corrie crap-for-brains liberalism that you embrace.

    “Geeknerd:
    For all your analogies to WWII you’re skirting dangerously close to a thirties-sounding “der ewige Araber”-rhetoric.
    Not everyone who’s ever opened a Qu’ran is evil.”

    First off – I broached the topic of those “…analogies to WWII…”.
    Next – your cushy-minded perspective of these events has nothing to do with an honest effort to appreciate what caused WWII, or the lessons we should learn from it.
    You continue to defend those elements who are part of advocating the elimination of Israel – and your note to Geeknerd shows your ignorant-arrogance in mocking those who have tried to keep the post-holocaust message of “Never Again”.

    It is true that ” Not everyone who’s ever opened a Qu’ran is evil.”,…
    -*- HOWEVER -*-
    Try wrapping your brain around THESE facts;
    - ALL those women who are being stoned to death in the Middle East (have you ever seen pictures of that?),
    - ALL those women who are condemned in kangaroo-courts and hanged (actually strangled to death),
    - ALL the women and young girls who have their genitals sliced-off with rusty razors (female circumcision in Africa and the Middle East)

    – ALL, every single of these thug misogynist elders doing this, advocating all these things — do have their Qu’ran wide open.

    Hey babe – there is ANOTHER hint of cultural toleration – perhaps you want to go live with the Mullah’s, be forced to wear a sack (burka), and get your labia and clitoral parts sliced off ?

    Not one of these ugly, hideous tragedies comes from anyone following a Judeo-Christian scripture.

    “Some people just don’t want to be confused with facts that contradict their preconceived opinions or prejudices…” — Geoff Metcalf

    • geeknerd
    • Posted July 19, 2010 at 7:23 am
    • Permalink

    Sandra,

    Read a translation of a Koran yourself (oops, sorry, it’s some kind of blaspheme to actually translate; that is, adulterate the word of Allah). In it one can find that your testimony is worth half of mine because you’re a woman and I’m a man. Give me a few minutes and I’ll find the sura and verse that mentions that fact.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 19, 2010 at 4:13 pm
    • Permalink

    @Sandra:

    There is long-running hostility between greek-orthodox groups and muslim groups. Don’t conflate them because of ethnicity. That’s almost like saying that everyone from the African-American diaspora practices voodoo, isn’t it?

    So what.

    There’s a long-running dispute between Hamas and Hezbollah and they were summoned to Mecca a while back and told to knock it off and take account of the larger goal of destroying Israel.

    Israel has many enemies, and their internal or inter-group unity is not an issue—just the status of the enemy as enemy for whatever theological or secular reasoning’s alike.

    You’re going off in some direction that I am NOT able to follow easily, Sandra. And also missing some larger points here.

    But let’s reload and try again:

    My comment about her (Thomas)derivation was to point out that apparently her Lebanese/Arabian background has had some antipathy to the Jews. As far as the purported conflict of the Greek Orthodox Church with Islam, they, like the Eastern Orthodox can ALSO be VERY anti-Israel, and in question-answer sessions with the Orthodox Church, their priests have made it clear they don’t think Israel really has any national standing or rights, or at least this is heavily implied they feel Israel is just (their term) a “secular patch of sand” in the Middle East and not the “True Israel”–which of course they define as their Church.

    From a theological point of view, this is at the very least highly questionable. But I’m not here to get into that. Leaving aside Thomas’ church’s disdain for Israel on doctrinal issues that can in some cases match the disdain they have for Muslims, the point is that your little adventure here has failed.

    It simply does not follow.

    I might also mention that EVEN if MY take on Thomas’s background is wrong and being of Lebanese derivation has NOTHING to do with any of her attitudes, it matters not.

    The fact is she has the attitudes she has, and THAT is the reason that as far as I was concerned, she’s welcome to visit the Sons of Allah in hell for her comments.

    They are what they are, regardless of source, background, upbringing, church attendance. Whatever.

    As to Israel’s “murders” and massacres, and other alleged horrors, you’re back to the old “pox on both houses” trick for moral cover, and YET you’ve also included a type of moral equivalency as your answer to what Israel should do.

    So, being part of the Western world, she is therefore to do NOTHING in order to garner your moral support and remain under the rather small (and gettin’ smaller) tent of the moral standards YOU have chosen to prove such membership.

    But the standard you have is impossible if you summarily declare that all violence in response to violence is on the same moral plain.

    By this reasoning, the police and all government authority should be disbanded. Immediately. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    It is, of course, impossible.

    And I do believe that’s the position you’d like to see and have come about.

    Which is exactly the point of your many interlocutors here.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 19, 2010 at 4:23 pm
    • Permalink

    ..and Israel can’t just “nuke” the whole Gaza strip any more than they can just “simply” NUKE MECCA, among other faux catcalls about final solutions.

    Though in the inverse, should Iran or others in the region get a hole of a nuke, they MIGHT nuke Jerusalem to finish the Jews off. They’ve said so. But beyond this there is the psychological fallout more than the chemical fallout one must consider with such actions, Sandra.

    It ain’t that easy tap-dancing around land mines, after all, and that’s what Israel is weighing. It is exactly for their human rights concerns that they’re trying to reach some kind of accommodations for the Gaza and West Bank residence while maintaining security, etc. What the final REAL human solution to this quandry is I don’t know. Nor do better minds than mind who work here and abroad studying such issues. But for certain this concern is why Israel alone give millions of tons of aid to the W. Bank and Gaza on the backs of their own taxpayers. Try that one on for size. The favor is not returned from any part of the Muslim world when Israel suffers one thing or another. I think that must speak for some moral clarity even if errors are made prosecuting the war on terror from the Israeli perspective.

    I do NOT envy this task of balancing rights with security issues. Unlike their own enemies, Israel is not into genocidal tendencies, but as Charles Krauthammer noted, the Flotilla blockade and boarding was perfectly legal. So at this point I think we’re in circles and retracing our own footprints like Robinson Crusoe.

    • Wake
    • Posted July 19, 2010 at 4:44 pm
    • Permalink

    Also, Israel offered to take the Flotilla to Gaza herself, pending inspection of the material. Turned down, of course.

    http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/

    Flotilla was not a “humanitarian” project, ya see. The cat is now out of the bag.

    It was by any measure of the meaning, a WARSHIP.

    Israel was perfectly in the bounds of its actions.

  28. First, I’ll respond to this by Wake:
    “So at this point I think we’re in circles and retracing our own footprints like Robinson Crusoe.”
    I originally had my answer to this last but I wanted you to see it first:

    Ok, so let’s summarize.

    Israel, or individual operatives, might make some mistakes in the war on terror. You claim that what happened on the Mavi Marmara wasn’t one of those times. We can drop it until more evidence surfaces after further investigation. (I believe (but don’t know) that the IDF was in the wrong in that particular case which is part of why I was so confused about this installment of Diversity Lane.)

    We agree that the point of the flotilla was to break or bypass the blockade itself, calling attention to the blockade. They chose to deliver forms of humanitarian aid that Israel blocks (building materials) but they had a political point to prove against the blockade.

    You say that the blockade is necessary lest Israel is backed into a corner. I say that the blockade backs the Gaza Strip into a corner. We both agree that this is a difficult moral conundrum.

    (Various side points about islamophobia, anti-semitism, WWII, and the rape, stoning, genital dismemberment and beheading of me and so on ignored for the sakes of this summary.)

    Now to the details:

    Steve T:
    “ideological bonds to the Rachel Corrie Za Za sisterhood”

    I didn’t know her. As far as I know, she was hit by a bulldozer and
    died, when she was kneeling in front of someone’s home in order to
    prevent it from being razed. Judging from how you refer to her name
    here, it’s as if she was Hitler.

    “Reality check for Sandra — one of those flotilla ships had a heavily
    armed mob that swarmed the Israeli soldiers, and was trying to kill
    them. Bullets taken from critically wounded IDF soldiers came from
    firearms that were NOT Israeli.”

    Would you please provide a source for that?

    “That is known as a FACT that strongly contradicts your kume-bye-ahh
    opinion of those flotilla, bambi-like innocent aid-bringers.”

    I stated that at least some passengers even on the Mavi Marmara itself
    was of the Kumbayah/Bambi persuasion. On the other hand, those that I
    do know more about, survived.

    “Those soldiers were fighting to save their own, and one another’s
    lives, and that too is a fact.”

    Sure. I’ll remember that if someone ropes onto my boat and shoots me.

    “and your note to Geeknerd shows your ignorant-arrogance in mocking
    those who have tried to keep the post-holocaust message of “Never
    Again”.”

    That certainly wasn’t my intention. I want to keep the spirit of Never
    Again alive and I inted no disrespect against it. No more genocides!

    Geeknerd:
    It’s surah 2:282. How about opening up your KJV to 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? “Ask [our]
    husbands at home?”

    But sure, seeing some of these countries you’d think that it was a
    scene from the middle ages. So what do you suggest?

    Wake:
    [On conflating greek-orthodox groups with muslim groups]
    “So what.”

    Or, it’s like conflating Jewish groups with Muslim groups, “seeing as
    they’re both from the middle east”.

    “My comment about her (Thomas)derivation was to point out that
    apparently her Lebanese/Arabian background has had some antipathy to
    the Jews.”

    It’s right to condemn Thomas’ antipathy against the Jews, but I was
    talking about the image on your homepage depticting her as a muslim.

    The danger I’m seeing here is that you (and this goes for Geeknerd,
    too) start off by (validly) criticizing Islam, and (validly)
    criticizing how it’s practiced in some countries,

    and then combine that with some sort of “all non-Jewish
    middle-easterners are Muslims and all Muslims are evil” formula, and I
    just don’t see where it’s going to end up.

    We can dig up horrible things from the Talmud and the Bible and from
    Christian and Jewish history but that doesn’t mean that all Christians
    or all Jews should be wiped out, thank God! Let’s continue to speak
    out against what we find wrong with Islamic tradition, but Muslims are
    human, too. Stop demonizing / de-humanizing them. Remember: “Never
    Again”.

    Best part:
    “What the final REAL human solution to this quandry is I don’t know.
    Nor do better minds than mind who work here and abroad studying such
    issues. But for certain this concern is why Israel alone give millions
    of tons of aid to the W. Bank and Gaza on the backs of their own
    taxpayers. Try that one on for size. The favor is not returned from
    any part of the Muslim world when Israel suffers one thing or another.
    I think that must speak for some moral clarity even if errors are made
    prosecuting the war on terror from the Israeli perspective.”

    This is actually reasonable.

    “Unlike their own enemies, Israel is not into genocidal tendencies,”

    That gives her a large amount of moral points in my book.

    “but as Charles Krauthammer noted, the Flotilla blockade and boarding was perfectly legal.”

    Some experts on international laws call it legal, and some illegal (because they see the blockade itself as illegal).

    “Also, Israel offered to take the Flotilla to Gaza herself, pending inspection of the material. Turned down, of course.”

    The point was to somehow show the absurdity of the blockade by trying to bypass it with humanitarian aid.
    So it boils down to whether or not the blockade is legit.

    Lastly:
    Geeknerd: “[Y]ou’ll have your clitoris cut out, be forced into a burka, and be forcibly married to some lower escellon Muslim soldier.”

    Steve T: “[T]hey would be sawing your (infidel) head off, with a rusty scimitar. Please, visualize this; – they often begin slicing at the front of your throat, so you can suffer while the forward 4-5″ of soft tissue are being cut through, before your spinal cord is cut (lights out).”

    Steve T: “[S]ome rapist thugs were attacking you, clubbing, knifing and shooting at you”

    Steve T: “[B]e forced to wear a sack (burka), and get your labia and clitoral parts sliced off?”

    Is this really the way you want to argue this? Detailed, violent, sometimes sexist, fantasies about the other person? Please reconsider. Doesn’t it make you sick to even go there in your mind?

    “Not one of these ugly, hideous tragedies comes from anyone following a Judeo-Christian scripture.”
    Jews, Christians and Muslims all practice female genital mutilation in some regions in Africa even though it contradicts all those religions.

  29. What the hell are you (Geeknerd and Steve T) trying to prove with the misogyny stuff? It only serves to remind me of how barbaric even the Western world still is, being a woman, and of scars I and others have suffered.
    Sure, there are places that are worse but if you think women here in Europe or in the United States are safe from sexual violence, you’re severely deluding yourself.

    • Steve T
    • Posted July 22, 2010 at 11:01 am
    • Permalink

    Scottie – one to beam up,… lock onto Sandra, then warp-factor 9 Fed Ex her back to her planet.

    • geeknerd
    • Posted July 23, 2010 at 6:59 am
    • Permalink

    Sandra,

    Of all the world’s religions, which is the worst in its treatment of women IN THE PRESENT DAY? Answer truthfully, if your leftist paradigm will let you.

    • Matt
    • Posted July 26, 2010 at 4:43 pm
    • Permalink

    Well, GN, that depends on whether or not you consider China’s general cultural climate to be religious or not; typically speaking (based on Chinese friends), they don’t share one single school of faith, but the country as a whole is pretty willing to more or less discard women because they cannot carry on the family name. A variety of warring countries in Africa have militias specifically dedicated to the raping of the women of their enemies. Purely in terms of religion, though, Muslim women in the Middle East, without a doubt, suffer the most out of any particular group. Women suffer everywhere for the heinous crime of having a vagina.

    For the record I am pretty far left by America’s standards, but I’m not dumb enough to align myself to one side of the political spectrum and let obvious things be overlooked for the sake of my paradigms. Hands down, the Palestinian camp has been more aggressive in their campaign because, well, overthrowing an established state is an aggressive act as it is. That’s not to say that innocent people don’t suffer on either side, and to be honest some of the regulations that Israel puts on Palestinians turns them to terrorism (watch The Hurt Locker scene where a man driving a car “becomes a terrorist”).

    • geeknerd
    • Posted July 27, 2010 at 6:19 pm
    • Permalink

    Matt,

    In that you are “not dumb enough to… let obvious things be overlooked for the sake of [your] paradigm,” you are unlike the vast majority. Too bad Sandra isn’t more like you.

    • G.W.Shrub
    • Posted August 3, 2010 at 8:12 am
    • Permalink

    I’m not sure where to write this as it’s a comment on the cartoons as a whole, but I just wanted to say these are some of the funniest things I have ever read, kept me giggling for at least an hour!

    I do still have a suspicion that this is actually a satire of right-wing cartoons, which would be a shame, but I guess it doesnt matter.

    • John Smith
    • Posted August 3, 2010 at 11:45 pm
    • Permalink

    Wow. Just looked through some of these cartoons. I still ldont know if my eyes will ever forgive me… Anyways, I must thank you for putting everything that’s wrong with America into a comic. Keep up the good work.

    Now, being a liberal, I must now go promote peace, curse SUVs, and apperrently, watch peace-keepers beat the crap out of people.

    Also, whoever said Gaza was in great condition has more screws loose than the latest BP oil rig. Bam!

    • Cloudchaser Sakonige
    • Posted August 4, 2010 at 4:35 am
    • Permalink

    Anyone know why Diversity Lane has suddenly been silent for two months? Did something happen to Zack?

    • Rafe C. - Moderator
    • Posted August 4, 2010 at 8:56 am
    • Permalink

    To All -
    Zack has been extremely busy with work and getting his new book ready for the publisher.
    There will be a number of (as yet) unpublished cartoons in it, and it is expected to be released soon.

    Zack is fine and has said he will be returning shortly with new cartoons and he looks forward to re-joining you all in the comments.

    We thank you for your patience~

    • geeknerd
    • Posted August 5, 2010 at 11:50 am
    • Permalink

    Where do I sign up to buy an advanced copy?

    • Cloudchaser Sakonige
    • Posted August 9, 2010 at 3:05 am
    • Permalink

    Good, I’m glad he’s OK :-)

    • Rafe C. - Moderator
    • Posted August 9, 2010 at 9:39 am
    • Permalink

    geeknerd-
    As soon as Zack knows the release date, I am sure he will have a posting with all that information.
    As of today, there are no advanced-ordering options available,… sorry.

    I have had some ‘inside’ information about what is in this book, and I am especially anxious to see it, too.

    And for this coming Christmas, stocking stuffers are going to be easy & fun!

    • DL-fan
    • Posted August 9, 2010 at 10:16 pm
    • Permalink

    I am glad Zack is OK and has not simultaneously combusted somewhere in the middle of the desert.

  30. I dont know what to talk about other than I have enjoyed reading. Good overall blog site!


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